discipline

The Disciple Debate

Philmundo — Fri, 09 Oct 2009 11:27:50 -0700

by Phil Stott

There's something of a debate developing among two of the more venerable news sources in this country over the issue of using time outs to punish a child-and it has the potential to get very confusing for parents.

Specifically, The New York Times published a piece a little while back suggesting that "conditional parenting"-holding back affection when a child misbehaves, or lavishing praise when they do something right-could lead to children feeling like they have to please their parents at every turn, and result in them growing into bitter and insecure adults. Then, this week, a blogger at Newsweek fired back, claiming that Times writer Alfie Kohn "overstated the science he had to support his argument," and suggested that an equally compelling case could be made to support conditional parenting.

See what I mean about confusing?

As someone who has been using a form of conditional parenting (time outs) since my daughter was old enough to understand the concept, my initial reaction on reading the Times piece was to knock up a few hundred words about how guilty I felt and throw it on Savvy Daddy as a conversation starter. A couple of things stopped me, though. First, upon re-reading the article, I realized that Kohn hadn't suggested any kind of an alternative, which meant that he was essentially asking parents like me to throw out the one effective disciplinary tool we have and to replace it with...nothing. And, second, the way the piece was presented reminded me of so many of those articles that find their way into the media only to be instantly contradicted by yet another "scientific study". (See the red wine is/isn't good for you debate for an example)

The third thing that put me off is that my parents essentially did the same thing to my four siblings and me when we were growing up, and yet none of us harbor any kind of resentment towards them. The reason? Because they made it very clear-and often-that they loved us. So when we were punished, we realized they weren't "withholding affection"-they were mad because we'd let them down. That's a crucial difference.

To me, the concept of "unconditional acceptance" is nonsense in the first place-even with your own child. Everyone has limits as to what they consider acceptable behavior to be, and if you make those explicit only to have them breached, you're perfectly entitled to express dissatisfaction or not display affection. The flip side-saying you'll accept someone (and their behavior) without precondition-only serves to legitimize every thing they choose to do, and leaves you with no leverage for attempting to adjust that behavior. And where does one draw the line? When my child hits me? Does explaining that I don't like to be hit, or that it hurts me, cross the line into withdrawal of affection?

Perhaps the most instructive thing in either of the two articles comes at the end of the Newsweek blog, where the writer describes an experiment where a researcher measured Chinese and American kids' scores on a test and-regardless of the child's performance-told each of the kids' moms that their child had done poorly. By and large, the Chinese moms lectured their children (lovingly) and stressed the importance of improving, while the American moms-likely browbeaten by years of being told not to discipline too harshly-talked to their kids about trivial stuff like what to have for dinner, or how their day had been. The results on re-test: "the Chinese kids improved at twice the rate of the Americans." The moral: children need to know when they've done wrong, or performed poorly because they haven't tried hard enough. Without that, how can they develop a sense of right and wrong, or a work ethic? And without those, how do we expect them to function as adults?

All things considered, I'll take the short-term pain of having my children dislike me in the moment as long as I feel that it's working towards the long-term goal of turning out well-rounded, responsible adults. For that reason, my naughty chair is staying exactly where it is.

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How do I get my wife to come to grips that she's not strict enough?

savvydaddy — Tue, 14 Apr 2009 08:48:33 -0700

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I love my wife and all, but she is totally missing it with our 3-year-old daughter (we'll call her Eva). She lets Eva get away with whatever she wants. She rarely does anything we ask her to. She hasn't really ever faced any time-outs or punishments of any kind. When we're leaving somewhere (like the mall), she won't follow us out. We have to physically yank her away and hold her down to get her out the mall and into the car.

I keep telling my wife that we have to lay down the law, but she keeps saying things like, "oh, she'll learn when school starts" or "she didn't get a good nap today" or some other lame excuse like that. I keep telling her that kids this age already know how to follow directions. They know how to play with others (usually). And some of them already have pretty good manners. I just don't think we've been strict enough with her. When we go to birthday parties or other classes (like gymanstics), it's so obvious that the other kids are so much better behaved. I don't mean to compare, but it's just so obvious.

What do you guys think? Am I way off base here? How do I get my wife to stop making excuses for our daughter misbehaving all the time?

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Over praising your children detrimantal to their development?

porkchopexpress — Mon, 13 Apr 2009 11:56:43 -0700

OK so I ran across this article today will killing time on my lunch hour.

http://www.startribune.com/lifestyle/family/42687007.html?elr=KArks7PYDi...

Basically it talks about a self esteem movement that started in the 80's that educators are just now learning 20 years later that praising your children constantly is not good for their development. What they thought would plant the seeds of self esteem really creates a aire of neediness, entitlement, and self importance.

Personally I was born in '74 and my folks somehow missed the memo on praising kids and not hitting them. While I am not a big fan of the whole hitting thing, I can honestly say that I never even considered praising my child for everything little thing they do. When he does well, praise, when he does bad correction. I thought it was that straight forward but I guess it isn't. Those of you who have read some of my previous posts know that my wife and I are expecting our first in about 3 weeks (as I write this entry) and growing up I really respected my parents. So naturally I look to their example to raise my own child. If I did exceptionally well at something they let me know I did well, if I screwed up I had a tanned hide, and everything else in between was just what I was supposed to do. After reading this article I started talking with some friends at work about their experinces with their own children, who are older, and I was floored to hear how educators handle awards.

When I was in school (yes I have already turned into my father) the only kids who were given awards were the ones who made honor role, won the spelling bee, math or science fairs. Others won trophies (1st, 2nd, 3rd, MVP) in athletics or were recognized for outstanding achievements in art or other crafts. I thought they were joking when they said that now everyone gets a certificate. Literally kids get recognition for just even showing up. And one father told me that in the T-ball and little league program his son is in they doesn't even keep score. What the ??? Some of my fondest memories of childhood is me standing up with my teammates and getting our trophies at the end of season awards banquet. But that was because I knew that I was part of a team that did better than everyone else. How that is even possible when there is no way in which to measure achievements. If something if assumed or handed to someone it is never appreciated. Heck, growing up I would have rather even had 3rd place than 2nd because it meant I won the last game and not just lost to the 1st place team in the finals. Now I understand that not every child is a Micheal Jordan, but my experinces encouraged me to work harder when I wasn't good at something because winning was an obtainable goal. And if I just plain lacked all talent in something I found something that I could learn to do well. I still can't dribble a basket ball but I can certainly knock a baseball out of the park.

Now I may be overly cynical but isn't that lying to our children? When they finish school and go out into the world they will be judged not only on their performance, but additionally on how they act, look, and interact with others. This is a fact, not a pretty one, but it is a fact that everyone has to deal with. I would love to be able to tell my child that if they work to the best of their ability that they will get the job they want. NASA doesn't hire people from where I went to school, Vogue doesn't hire people who graduate at the top of their class but don't have the right look, and that isn't even taking into account descrimination against race, sex, and religion. I wish it wasn't this way but sadly this is the way the world is. Doesn't ignoring these harsh realities do them a disservice by having them get used to the idea that regardless of how well they do they will be rewarded in some way, when the reality is that even if they do a awesome job where they work it will most likely go unnoticed or unappreciated? Not that I am saying that from the womb kids need to be beaten over the head with the cruelity of the world. But I do think that the small dissappointments of not placing in every contest is a good way to help prepare them emotionally for the world that they are growing into.

I am all for giving a pat on the back so to speak when it is deserved, but isn't this encouraging mediocrity?
To quote one of my favorite movies, The Incredibles:
"...And when everyone is a super, then no one will be."
-Syndrome

What does everyone think?
Porkchop

Why children need sports

Toby — Sun, 08 Feb 2009 05:53:12 -0800

Greetings dads, For those who have not seen the movie "Miracle," get it TODAY! My favorite scene is when Herb Brooks skates his boys to their knees and says this famous line: "When you pull on that jersey, remember the name on the front is a hell of a lot more important than the one on the back!" This is the lesson children, and their parents, will learn through sports. It does not matter your nationality, color, political party, or last name; to be a member of a team, one must be able to play and get along with those on the team. Children learn how to deal with winning and losing - lessons that seem to be vanishing to today's "I'm entitled" culture. Get your kids involved, you don't have to be the dad that coaches the team, but go to backyard, go to practice, go to the games. Sports do not only keep your kids healthy, sports develop their character. Cheers, Toby

Revenge of the toys

wonkitime — Mon, 29 Dec 2008 10:09:09 -0800

By Phil Stott

So after writing a couple of weeks ago about the challenges and advantages of taking it easy with gift spending over the festive season, I have a couple of things to report. First is that my daughter Maeve (a one-year-old) received a much bigger Christmas than either my wife or I anticipated. And the second is that, although I've broken my budget -- something that happens every year -- it's not been by as much as I might have expected, given the amount and quality of gifts we've accumulated.

There are a few reasons that Maeve's first "real" Christmas has escalated from one main gift towards the super-sized without overstretching the Stott family budget. A few weeks ago (right after I wrote the initial holiday spending piece, in fact), my wife and I took Maeve for a day out to the winter fair at the school my wife used to teach at. As with all good winter fairs, there was food and shopping aplenty -- including a full room dedicated solely to second-hand toys, a previously untapped market for me. I'm not going to reveal the full extent of everything we bought there -- I'm convinced Maeve is like Stewie from Family Guy, and can read but is hiding it from us to her advantage -- but suffice it to say that for $15 we picked up enough mint-condition toys to give any one year-old a decent Christmas, and for $50 we would have needed a second car to get everything home!

(The sad side note is that there was so much other stuff in perfect or near-perfect condition that would have made any child happy, but while I can give second-hand toys to my own kid, I can't give them to the "Toys for tots" program my office is running this festive season. I understand that there are sound reasons for not accepting some second-hand toys, but a blanket ban seems a little harsh, if indicative of the times we live in.)

The second-hand thing is something I've really come to embrace since becoming a parent. While I flirted with thrift store shopping as a poor student -- poor in that I couldn't afford a decent winter coat but always seemed to have money for beer! -- finding stuff for kids seems much easier, and entails much less in the way of digging through racks of mold-infested tat. Part of the reason is that people tend to overbuy for children, whether their own or someone else's, and kids grow and develop so fast that the clothes and toys they get can end up very lightly used, if at all, by the time the child is too old for them.

So far, my wife and I have spent next to nothing on clothes or toys for Maeve, as we've been fortunate enough to have a few neighbors and colleagues with slightly older kids, so we've benefited greatly from others' clutter -- oftentimes getting full outfits that still have the store tags on them. The only problem I had was getting over an initial twinge of pride ("I'm capable of providing for my own child") -- something that evaporated as soon as I comprehended the sheer amount of stuff that people accumulate when kids come on the scene. At that point, pragmatism overtook pride as I realized it would be downright stupid not to take advantage of an entire stream of good-quality free stuff that we'd have ended up buying anyway.

As for the other main reason our holiday shopping exploded, I have two words for you: recession and bankruptcy. If you've got kids and you haven't been down to your local branch of KB Toys to snap up the bargains, there may still be time. I'd been expecting a full-on melee to be in progress when I arrived at ours, but was surprised to find that the crowds were light enough to make it some of the least stressful holiday shopping I've done so far. Come to think of it, it's probably a reflection of why the firm went bust in the first place -- I only realized we had a KB Toys in town when I saw a guy with a sign promoting the going out of business sale. Turns out it was right next door to our usual grocery store!

Anyway, the point of this wasn't to gloat about making out like a bandit in the recession (although that does feel nice!), but to point out that there's more than one way to skin the holiday shopping cat - especially with the economic mess out there this year, which has actually benefited people like me who tend to leave their gift buying until the last minute. I also wanted to point out that, although I may dole out advice on gift giving, I'm as likely as anyone to overshoot the boundaries of my well-crafted plans -- especially where my kid's involved. The trick is to try and do it when opportunity arises. As my own dad said when I called him lamenting the volume of stuff we'd bought: "You have an attic. You don't have to give it all at once." On which note...I'm off to see what I can find in the sales for next Christmas!

Unorganized and Expecting

wonkitime — Fri, 05 Dec 2008 15:34:13 -0800

By Darius Alexander

I pride myself on being organized. Actually, I pride myself on trying to be organized. I have all these ideas of getting a folder for each of my bills and having a well-organized filing cabinet with all of my important papers marked and ready at a moment's notice. I've also had the idea of scanning all of my important papers and keeping copies of them on my computer. That way, I can have a totally paperless home!

But none of those things have happened yet.

And now with an impending new arrival, those things aren't going to happen anytime soon. I'm doing my best to get everything organized so I can concentrate on being a father in a few months. But the whole task is just overwhelming.

Ideally, I want to work with my wife and have charts, tables and lists posted all over the house. I want to have our meals planned out for the month, a chore list posted on the refrigerator and our carpool list in a prominent location. I want to have our recipes in a convenient place so we never have to look for them. I want our refrigerator organized in such a way that we never have to throw away food that we could've eaten had it not been in the back where we couldn't see it. In addition to having those things posted around the house, I want to have digital copies on my computer. I want to have copies of those copies because you never know when your new infant or cat is going to spill orange juice on your laptop rendering it nothing more than the world's most expensive paperweight.

I also want to go through all of the parenting magazines we've been receiving for three years and enter everything into a database so I can look anything up at a moment's notice. What type of tax deductions can I use because of my new baby? All I would have to do is type in "tax deductions" in my computer's search feature and that article would appear on my screen in a matter of seconds. How do I get a nickel out of my son's nose? Who knows how much damage I could save to my son's nose and brain if I don't need to take the time to search through all those magazines or call the pediatrician at 3 a.m.

But alas, it doesn't look like that's going to happen before the arrival. I've been spending too much time working and saving up money for the kid's college fund. It looks like things are going to be just as disorganized after the new baby comes as it is now. Hopefully I'll find some time to get at least some of these things done so I can spend as much time as possible with the new baby.

Don’t spend the holidays spending

Philmundo — Wed, 03 Dec 2008 10:45:50 -0800

By Phil Stott

With the holiday season now officially upon us, my wife and I have begun the yearly ritual of gift shopping. Having more or less had a free pass last year (there's nothing like having a baby the day before Thanksgiving to legitimize removing yourself from the gift-exchange), I'm finding this year more of a challenge than ever before. As a dad, I have the new (although not entirely unpleasant) problem of deciding what, if anything is too much to give my child -- especially as she's too young to have any idea what's going on. As a husband, meanwhile, I'm struggling with getting something that my wife will both like and use, and that shows I'm aware she still has her own identity, on top of being a mom. As if all of that's not enough to be wrestling with, out in the real world there's the question of what's appropriate in the current economy, especially after only recently surviving a fairly traumatic downsizing at my office.

Don't worry, though, this isn't going to be yet another advice column on "the top 10 places to shop in a downturn," or anything like that. Far from it, in fact; rather than being someone who tries to maintain his lifestyle regardless of income -- even by cutting corners -- I was raised with the maxim that "you cut your cloth according to your means." It's something that seems ever more appropriate these days, as a mountain of accumulated debt comes crashing down around us as a society. It's a decent first rule for approaching gift shopping as well: don't buy what you can't afford.

Even something as simple as that rule can open up several new questions. Where does being frugal (or sensible) cross the line to being (or looking) cheap? How do you balance quality against quantity? How do you scale back today having been a lavish gift-giver in years past?

One of the first steps one of my family members took this season may also be one of the simplest: being honest. While it's not easy telling relatives that you're looking to cut costs by cutting them out of your gift list, chances are they'll understand (we did). And, especially in this economy, you'll often find that they're grateful to have one less expense to deal with themselves (again, we were).

While that approach may be fine for dealing with extended family members, kids are a different story -- especially those who are old enough to understand that holidays equal gifts. Here too, though, honesty may well prove to be the best policy: letting kids know that they need to scale down their expectations is one way of ensuring that they're less disappointed when the big day arrives. As for whether there's a "right" way to do it? Who knows: I've seen my local news station advocating telling kids that Santa's broke this year because of the recession. Nothing like passing off your fiscal woes on a fictional character!

As for the question of quality versus quantity, my temptation is always to go with the former on big ticket purchases (just make less of them), while stocking stuffers and the like can always be budgeted downwards to spread the dollars around a little more. And you can also up the quality of the holiday by taking more time to do something, be it a walk or a trip to a park (weather permitting), or lighting a fire and getting some indoor s'mores going alongside a board game -- there are plenty of ways to flesh out a holiday and draw attention away from the gift pile.

Finally, make a point of remembering that the holiday season isn't about gifts: it's about spending time with loved ones. While it's nice to be able to spoil the people you love when times are good, there's no written rule that says it's absolutely necessary --regardless of what the endless commercials might be telling you. Spending time with people is far more valuable than spending a truck-load of cash on them, even if it's harder to do. And if that's true for adults, it's doubly true for kids. If in doubt, think back on any regular holiday where you received gifts as kid. Chances are you won't be able to remember more than one or two of the presents, and it's even less likely you'll have them left. The time spent with loved ones, however, is likely to stay with you forever -- proving its importance even if you didn't recognize it as a gift at the time.

A tale of two children

Philmundo — Thu, 20 Nov 2008 17:16:48 -0800

By Phil Stott

So it turns out that my kid's a nightmare. Well, at least in comparison to my brother-in-law's almost-eleven-month-old daughter anyway. A month younger than Maeve, she also happens to be an exceptionally docile creature.

I met her for the first time last Thursday when my wife's brother, and his wife, came out to New York to visit us. Despite having waited in the rain at a train station for at least five minutes following a 30-minute train ride from the airport and a five-hour flight from Phoenix, she didn't melt down when I arrived to pick them up. Maeve? Not so much-not a big fan of strangers, she takes a long time to warm up to new people, especially men.

The next step was the car ride home. Maeve is at the stage where we pretty much drive around with the same song on repeat in order to keep her calm (Coldplay's Viva La Vida, since you ask-she seems to like the intro). On good days, she'll fall asleep, or play with something long enough to forget that she hates her car seat. On bad days, you don't even want to know. But Maeve's cousin? Smiled as she was put in the seat, babbled a bit, fell asleep until we got home, didn't even cry when we woke her up taking her inside. No music required.

Initially, I put the even-tempered performance down to the fact that she was tired from traveling and being on a plane (completely ignoring how Maeve reacts to tiredness), but over the course of the weekend the gulf in personalities showed up so often that it became difficult to ignore. When the two girls were playing together, it was Maeve who consistently stole her cousin's toys, and yelled whenever something was taken away from her. It seems like it was always Maeve who had to be told to be gentle, to give something back, to share (all fairly abstract concepts for a not-quite-one year old, I know, but you have to start somewhere, especially when your kid's the tyrant and the other's parents are right there).

Not to belabor the point, it was also Maeve who was responsible for my wife and I alternating shifts bolting food at the table and standing outside with the stroller and an arsenal of toys at a Manhattan tapas restaurant. Her cousin, aunt and uncle, meanwhile, got to enjoy its warmth and comfort in full (for the 20 minutes it took us to scarf the meal and chug the wine we'd ordered, that is), the way one can when a baby sits contentedly in a high chair. And did I mention that she's so quiet they can take her to the movies?

I have no idea if there's a reason behind the differences in behavior, or if it's just the vagaries of fortune. I've contemplated the idea that it's something to do with the difference between breast and bottle feeding (Maeve gets the former, her cousin the latter since she was four months old), but that seems an unlikely conclusion-not to mention a deeply unscientific one to reach off a population sample of two. I'm pretty sure that it's not a question of discipline at this age either. Maybe it's the difference in climate between Phoenix and New York, or just that being a New Yorker, however young, gives one what might be called an edge.

Whatever it is, I do know a couple of things for certain. First, no matter how she behaves from time to time, in this father's eyes no kid will ever be better than Maeve, more fun to be around, or more loved. And the second thing also happens to be the best bit of parenting advice I've come across to date in my short career: this too shall pass. That was the thought that crossed my mind as I drove away from the airport after dropping the relatives for their flight home. One that was followed, naturally, by the fervent hope that we'll get revenge in the well-behaved baby stakes. My fingers are already crossed for some retribution during the terrible twos!

No - you can't chew on your brother!

Schoebdoo — Sat, 15 Nov 2008 05:38:13 -0800

Hello gentlemen,

Wanted to start a string for discipline with twins to try and group think issues we might have had or be having for some of us newer twin daddies. I have 17 mo b/g twins that have been interacting with each other for a while now, but now they seem to realize that they are twins (you mean this kid is always going to be around me?) and we've hit the stage of frustration (not being able to fully express their needs and desires) and the resulting flying fists and bared teeth. With the additional "Monkey see, Monkey do" effect of them mimicking each other, it's proving difficult to referee.

We are currently trying to maintain the behavior with "No"'s and "Biting/Hitting hurts" but it seems to be getting worse in both frequency and intensity. The interesting thing to me is that they do not have issues with other kids at Day Care or any adults, just each other.

I appreciate your thoughts.

Twins Savvy